RealmIQ: SESSIONS with EVAN SHAPIRO

In this episode of RealmIQ: Sessions, Curt Doty hosts Evan Shapiro, the "official cartographer of the media universe." Shapiro, an Emmy and Peabody Award-winning media strategist, discusses AI’s increasing politicization, its impact on media and technology, and how creatives can embrace AI to stay ahead. The conversation touches on AI’s role in filmmaking, job market shifts, and the transformation of traditional and digital media landscapes. Shapiro also highlights the rise of independent creators and the importance of understanding new media distribution models.

Topics Discussed

1. AI and Politics – How AI has become politicized and its implications.
2. Big Tech and AI – The monopolization of AI by companies like Meta, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, and NVIDIA.
3. Regulation vs. Deregulation – The debate around AI governance, Section 230, and misinformation.
4. AI’s Effect on the Workforce – Job displacement, creation, and the necessity of AI skills.
5. AI in Filmmaking – Hollywood's slow adoption, cost reductions, and new creative possibilities.
6. AI in Advertising – AI-driven agencies and the impact on Madison Avenue.
7. The Creator Economy – The rise of independent creators and new media monetization.
8. The Transformation of Media – The decline of mainstream journalism and the rise of independent media.
9. The Future of Streaming – How traditional studios miscalculated the streaming wars.
10. The Role of Education – How younger generations are more adaptable to AI.

Quotes 

1. "Everything we keep thinking is going to democratize technology winds up solidifying the moat around big tech companies." – Evan Shapiro
2. "AI is only as safe and unbiased as the people who design it." – Evan Shapiro
3. "AI is a fast-moving train—either get on or get run over by it." – Curt Doty
4. "If you refuse to engage with AI now, you'll be overwhelmed by it later." – Evan Shapiro
5. "The most important aspect of AI in filmmaking will be its ability to help emerging artists level up their production values." – Evan Shapiro
6. "Technology should have no dogma, yet here we are, seeing AI being politicized like everything else." – Evan Shapiro
7. "The news division used to be separate from the entertainment division. Now, it's all about profit, and that’s a big part of the problem." – Evan Shapiro
8. "The rise of independent news outlets and newsletters is one of the most encouraging trends in media today."– Evan Shapiro
9. "What brush are you going to use today? AI is just another tool for creatives to innovate." – Evan Shapiro
10. "Embrace the creator economy—Hollywood is circling the drain, and new media is where the future lies." – Evan Shapiro

Transcript

Hi, I'm Curt Doty with RealmIQ, my AI consultancy, and this is our podcast, RealmIQ: Sessions, where we talk about everything AI with international AI leaders and AI founders. Please give us a follow or subscribe. And today's guest is Evan Shapiro, who is the official cartographer of the media universe.

How cool of a title is that? He's a prolific and Pithy writer through his media war and peace newsletter. And now his new podcast media odyssey with co-host Marion Ranchet.  He has run TV network streaming platforms and produced Portlandia. Among many other shows. He's won an Emmy and two Peabody's as a featured speaker at every media conference around the world. 

Shapiro is also a professor of media at NYU and Fordham Schools of Business. Shapiro leads the change agency, ESHAP, which offers their partners and media insight and strategies of service. So, welcome professor. We do go back a few years. You've been an advisor to me and certainly an inspiration. So, so glad to have you on our little show here.

Thanks so much. It's kind of you to ask me.  So yeah, we're talking about AI conversations. Obviously.  I, I'm a little shocked that, you know, AI is now not only been politicized, but geo politicized. And so, what was in the news from a tech bubble perspective is now exploding into the political arena.  I certainly appreciated your perspectives on politics in the past and your voice.

But what do you think is the future of AI now that it's been politicized? And how do we, how do we navigate this landscape? It's pretty tricky.  Yeah, it's, I mean, it's unfortunate. It seems like everything has been politicized of late. You can't, you can't escape the Infiltration of the political mindset into all aspects of our lives.

I mean, you know, and tech itself has been politicized. Unfortunately, you know, which, you know, technology should have no dogma. It should just be at least from my perspective. It's interesting. You know, one of the key dangers in the ecosystem is this. Transcribed You know, everything we keep thinking is going to democratize technology winds up solidifying the moat around these big tech companies.

You know, you can now add NVIDIA to that collection of big tech death stars that I, that I write about often. And, you know, you look at who's investing the biggest or the most in AI, it's the same companies that controlled Web 2. 0, Meta, Amazon. Google, Microsoft, and now you add NVIDIA to that. And you know, I don't think these companies are inherently evil, but they are inherently self-interested.

And so, consolidating their, their hold on power with regards to the information society is, you know, paramount to their business plans. Which is, you know, why I think they're also Pleased with the current change in administration because there seems to be a deregulation movement happening, not a regulation and, you know, I'm, I'm neither for nor against regulation.

I'm, I'm for sensible regulation when it makes sense and I'm against stupid regulation when it doesn't. But right now, I think there, there is a, I think accepted reality that you know, either. The way I is training itself may be not in the best interest of people who create content. And then on the flip side, you know, they're in there. 

A is only as safe and unbiased as the people who design it. And so, you know, I, I, I, I am concerned at. You know, where not just AI, but technology itself is headed because it doesn't seem to be that we're building it without a bias. It seems like we're purposely building it with a bias.  Yeah. So those same big tech leaders are the same big tech leaders in social media.

And that's gone unregulated, and we've certainly seen the damage that that has caused. And so those people in charge of social media, they don't want regulation, right, they want to be unbridled in their path of innovation, and they want to ride that hockey stick. Competing in this vertical race as who, who can beat who and whatever features so it's unfortunate.

It's unfortunate that Biden's, you know, guidelines, they weren't really laws, but they were certainly guidelines for companies for self-regulation and reporting and transparency. I'm hoping that, you know, those can exist.  As some type of guideline for companies, all tech companies. What I find ironic about this entire topic is those companies who say they are anti regulation want to keep section two 30 in place. 

The section two 30 is a piece of. Regulation. I mean, that's what it is. But what it does is it protects the platforms from being sued for the content that travels over their pipes and over their platforms.  And if you're for, if you're against regulation, then you should be against regulation. And, you know, if, if Google and Meta and.

Microsoft and Amazon and open AI and all of these other platforms were held responsible for misinformation that travels across their pipes, they'd be substantially more careful about the information that travels across their pipes. And I think That is, that's not regulation, that's freedom, and that's the freedom of the consumer to hold companies accountable when they are damaged by the behaviors of those companies.

And I, I, to me, I don't think there's anything more important in the United States right now than the removal of Section 230. I think it is, it is one of the chief components to the crisis of truth. That we now face in this country.  Yeah. It's also not just misinformation. I did a test this morning between ChatGPT and Google Gemini. 

I said, Hey what, what's the latest on what Trump is doing? And Google Gemini responded. Yeah, I can't talk about any political figures. What now? Yes. Blocked. But yeah, ChatGPT did it, you know, nice summary, unbiased.  With a couple of real links. So, there's Google, you know, saying, yeah, we're not going to say anything bad about, you know, this administration.

There was a time when that company, their, their slogan was don't be evil. 

Yeah, I think we can assume that, I mean, again, I don't think the stars are, are evil and Darth Vader, you know, at the helm of everyone. Yeah, I mean, on the flip side, I think there, there is this, so, so we have this conversation. We talk about the dangers of ai and then on the other hand, what I think is happening as a byproduct. 

Is there are a lot of people who hear the hyperbole about AI, and it is replacing jobs or they, they, they hear about the dangers even from people like you and I, who are, you know, I think, trying to do the right thing. And then, so they just shelter away from AI as a result of it. They, they, they refuse to engage in it, or they write it off as whatever and.

You know, what will wind up happening is the people who refuse to engage in AI at this moment in time are going to be the ones that are going to be overwhelmed by it and overcome by it as the technology improves and, and, and proliferates.  And so, you know, what I would encourage people to do is to engage so, you know, the, the, the, the, I think the key.

is, you know, jump in, get wet, you know, and you'll learn how to swim. But if you avoid it by sitting just at the poolside, you're in danger of getting pushed in and drowning.  I would like to take a second and say, I didn't know where that analogy was going before I started it, but okay.  Well, my analogy is AI is a fast-moving train.

Either get on the train or you're going to get run over by it. Yeah, absolutely. And just on what happens to those people who have their head in the sand. So, the world economic forum estimates new job creation and job displacement will amount to 22 percent of today's total jobs, meaning there will be 170 million jobs that will be created.

By 2030 but conversely that's offset by the loss of 92 million jobs, but net growth of 78 million. So, people need to ask themselves, where are they going to be in that equation? Right. That's exactly right. And, and, and, and then there's the, you know, if you, that's the, that's the creation and deletion of jobs by AI, right?

But then there's a whole other hundreds of millions of jobs that will be changed by AI.  And, you know, those, you know, so, so somebody who works in editing right now, or coding. Frankly, or frankly, gene splicing, like each one of these areas or architecture, each one of these areas are going to be affected by AI.

And so, while your job may not be replaced by AI, your job will be taken by someone who is good at it.  Right. It needs to be, it needs to be on the resume. Right. Yeah, absolutely. And any mean new hires? If it isn't on the resume, yeah. Not going to be considered.  So, whether you're employed or not, if you're putting out a, a resume out there without AI as a capability, then you won't be considered.

And that's interesting. And I, I know you're you, you teach, and I'm just curious, what are you teaching your students? Because you know, this is a critical time for our youth. And the next generation who's coming up the ranks living with all this w what are your observations? What do you, what do you tell your students? 

Well, the first thing is, is that they seem substantially more comfortable with AI in their lives than, you know, people my age and older.  And that's, there's a, there's a, the National Bureau of Economic Research put out a study at the end of last year showing that there's a huge age and gender gap.

Hmm. Really? That people under the age of 40 are substantially more comfortable engaging with AI than people over 40 and that men are far more. Comfortable engaging with AI at work then women and when, when they asked the people who were not comfortable with it, what their problems were that they were privacy concerns primarily and those are justified concerns.

Don't get me wrong, but you also carry a supercomputer in your pocket every day. That's tracking your every movement, your heart rate, where you go, you know, you go on the highway, use the easy pass. We know where you are. So, you know, like. You kind of got to get over the privacy concerns to a certain extent, I think not to not be safe, but, but also just like, realize, like, there is no expectation of privacy when you walk out of your house or even in your house anymore.

You know, and if you're not okay with that, maybe go move into a cave. But the, the, the way I try to inform my students about AI is it's like any other form of technology. If you become completely relying on it. You will become obsolete yourself.  That's the dumbing of America right there. That's exactly right.

You know, I no longer know how to get anywhere on my own without a Google map and that's my fault. Yeah. I don't know anybody's phone number. Right. Do not know anyone. I don't know my wife's phone number. I don't know my kid's phone number. I just go daughter, wife. Mother, right? Or voice command, right?

And that's the danger with AI is like, yeah, you can use AI to write your reports. But then when you get asked questions about it, what are you going to do?  You can't use AI to give your presentation for you. That's not how life works. So, you know, I don't I'm not as dogmatic about, like, checking my students work for use of AI, because I feel like, look, if they hand in a report that feels well written, well researched, and well presented, and then they just really prompted AI incredibly well, or they Used some combination of their own intellect and technology to produce a report That is enjoyable to me and taught me something who gives a shit, which  At the end of the day, but it is the marriage of humanity and technology that I think will Ultimately be the winner here.

I like to talk about I have a lot of film students and theater students in my class because it's a collaboration between Tish and Stern, which is the business school in the art school and you know, I get asked, you know, when is AI going to be good enough? And this is not just by students. I was asked this.

On a podcast earlier this week. You know, where, where there will there be a time when AI is better at art than humans?  And my answer to that is when AI decides to cut off its left ear because its girlfriend doesn't talk to it.  Then it will be able to, right. Like we're fucked up and that's what makes us good artists.

Yeah. We're not, we're not great artists because we're exacting with a ruler. Do you know what I mean? Like Picasso couldn't have done what Picasso did if it prompted AI and said, you know what, give me a cubist version of this lady. Yeah, and it's it is it is the marriage of humanity and technology that gives us film, right?

It gives us television that gives us radio that gives us Podcasting and it will be the marriage of those two that gives us the next generation of art That is the collision of artificial intelligence and actual.  Yeah, speaking of film and AI is a big topic. I've covered it a lot What are your thoughts about?

Film industry, and I believe it's been slow to really embrace it for obvious reasons around IP unions copyright issues, but yet, the rest of the world has moved on and is using AI and video and commercials and, and do you think there's a thaw happening with Hollywood or You know, what's your observations around that?

So, it's, it's interesting. So, if you look at the adoption of Unreal Engine as an aspect of production, I mean, that's to a certain extent, a piece of artificial intelligence. And so, you know, the Mandalorian, basically all of its backdrops are and, you know, I, I don't think there’s, and I'm sure there'll be set designers and, and graphics.

Animators who will be upset by this, but you know, the speed and reduction of cost that AI is going to allow and is already allowing a decent amount of the production stack to address is, I think, a good thing. It's, I think people see it as an elimination of jobs. And in reality, what I hope it means is we'll make more good movies.

Because we're going to spend less time and like, why are we spending 300 million to make a movie that doesn't make a lot of sense, like a Marvel movie, right? Right. And, and, and, and I think Marvel is now getting to the point where they're like, maybe we should stop spending so much money on these movies because not all of them are making money now. 

Too hard to make money back on that 300 million. It really is. Although marketing, it's like, although captain America made a hundred million dollars this past weekend. And you know, there's a lot of AI.  There's a lot of AI in Sonic, the last Sonic, the hedgehog Jim Carrey. You know, a decent chunk of Jim Carrey's performance in the last Sonic movie was AI, because he didn't want to be on set as much.

But there's a really good example. Like, Jim Carrey didn't want to be on set so much. We need Jim Carrey in this movie. Let's capture Jim Carrey's likeness and voice. And then we can put Jim Carrey in this movie with his permission without him having to be on set in this ridiculous three equal, you know, like that's not art. 

Let's be honest, right? On the flip side, I think the most important aspect of A. I. In filmmaking will be in the ability for young Up and coming emerging artists to level up their production values to the point where they can actually compete with studio films without having to spend 100 million on a film.

I think that's going to wind up being one of the most crucial contributions that artificial intelligence gives to the filmmaking. Yeah, I will also say that I predict a boom in documentaries because AI can help. Right. With scenes, restoring historical scenes, bringing to life you know, vintage photographs.

So, all of a sudden it becomes a scene, not just a Ken Burns drifting over the photograph. Right. It's like, you know, I think, I think documentaries will get better with these tools that are extremely cheap, and they generally are very stressed, right. And their budgets. And well, that's the thing is like, there's not a harder aspect.

of entertainment right now than raising money to make a documentary that isn't true crime.  Like, put true crime aside for a second. All other forms of documentary are under a crisis. They're having a real hard time because there was this boom that Netflix inspired about, you know, about five years ago that lasted for a decent amount of time.

And then COVID happened, and the world set up upside down. And so, you know, this boom ended and now there's a real crisis in both independent film and documentary film. That's mostly like, how do we get these films funded and where are they being distributed? But, you know, it takes a year or more and a million dollars to make a good documentary. 

Yeah, you're right, Kurt. I think there's an opportunity to make it for a lot less and take a lot less time and therefore you don't need a million dollars to make a documentary. You can make it for far less.  Far less and just remove obstacles of, you know, production. It's like, and make the films better, right?

It's not just a matter of reducing costs but actually making them better. Right, using the technology, which you know, technology shifts and filmmaking and film production evolves. Imagine, imagine if filmmakers decided, and this is, and, and by the way, it's, it's interesting.  On one hand, entertainment has always been kind of the leading voice in the invention of new technology.

Steve Jobs talks about how he was inspired by Star Trek. Fritz Lang was the first person in the world to create the countdown clock to zero in 1929 for women in the moon. You know, long before NASA was a thing. Yeah. In fact, they brought Fritz Lang to the first. Blast off to show him, you know, how his countdown had inspired them.

And, and, and so, you know, I think artists should be the first to imagine new uses for new technologies. But when you talk to filmmakers, specifically movie makers about new technology and the creator economy and all these things, they're the ones that are kind of like most. Pearl clutching like, oh, my, no, all right.

Oh, my, no. And I just, to me, it's shaking them loose of their, you know, their love of the art in, in favor or instead of an embrace of technology. It's like, well, what would you do if, if you hadn't embraced that?  Right. Well, we will be watching vaudeville, right? There's still be vaudeville in comedy and schtick, right?

That was the entertainment for movies. And that's what Edison filmed was like kind of a vaudevillian kind of presentation. And that. really dictated the perspective of what films were. They were like, Oh, they're plays put on a stage, right? The only, the only reason Fritz Lang got to make movies is because a technologist named Thomas Edison invented the technology that enabled him to make movies.

And so, if, if it's the same analogy. It is.  Today we have the new version of the camera. It's called AI. Do you want to use it? Or do you want to fall behind literally everyone else and still keep making silent films? It doesn't make any sense to me. Right. Yeah. I mean, what Truffaut brought to Cinema Verite and, you know, kind of evolved.

What you do with a camera isn't just a locked three camera type of you know, play, you know, all of a sudden and, and I believe that creative people using this technology are going to be the ones that elevate it to the next level. That's one of the reasons I got into television. You know, I, back in the day when I started ABC news, I was hired because I was this.

Creative. I was this illustrator, storyteller, designer, and that's what they needed to guide where the technology was, which is the big chrome logos falling down in, in, in news. Right. And they said, my boss was visionary Ben Blank. He said, we, we need creatives in charge of this stuff. Not the unions, which were not in good art school, you know, they were electricians.

It is always the creatives. It is always the creatives who lead the charge with regards to new thought progress in society and the envisionment or the, the vision of what. new technology can mean to the world. I mean, think about Gene Roddenberry. Think about Fritz Lang, Ursula Le Guin science fiction writer.

You know snow crash. Like all of these, these, these ready players one like we can talk about endlessly comic books. You know, you, you, you look, I mean, look, the first interracial kiss ever seen on the TV, you know, it depends on where you look at it, but it was either I love Lucy or Star Trek and so entertainers like we thought, and that's what we look to them.

For but this, you know, this recalcitrance that I see in a lot of people, especially the most kind of ardent artists is it's worrisome. It feels you know, it feels reactionary. And I don't I don't think. It's going to, I don't think it's going to do for them what they think it's going to do for them due to them.

Yeah, certainly. But there are encouraging signs. So, and I, I believe this AI in video, I think is going to affect Madison Avenue sooner than Hollywood because of the short form nature, kind of a nonlinear non sequitur. Type of fantastic videos that can happen with the AI fits right into the ethos of a Nike shoe a Prada bag where there's just splash and spectacle.

And that was cool, right? I'm going to remember that amidst the drivel of the rest of advertising and. And yeah, they did it for less money. But, you know, I also see this trend of agencies now and Glenn Casper started one. He's famous kind of TV promo guy. And he said, I'm, I'm now chief creative officer of an agency that only does AI. 

spots.  That's groundbreaking. I hadn't heard that. It's like I talk with a lot of agencies and they're like, yeah, we're playing with it, you know, it's a reality. We're trying to embrace it, learn it. And then bam, an agency says, Oh, this is all we do. And that's like, well, and I, I, I work with a company called social department which was founded by John Verk, who was the CEO of pro max, which is the, you know, promotion trade association.

And you know, who, whose entire reason for being at one point in life was getting promo, you know, producers and editors, you know more work and. he has created this platform that enables platforms to create high volume social video promos you know, five second Instagram videos using a really good producer editor to guide a piece of AI. 

It is the combination of the two and we did a John Henry versus the steam engine like game show the other day where we had an editor versus an editor working with this AI platform social department and they're both very talented award winning producer editors  we gave them Four hours to watch three episodes of Yellowstone and produce as many good Instagram promos as they possibly could at the end of that time Yeah, producer editor working with adobe and the ai that's in adobe and all that kind of stuff came back with one promo Because he had watched Three hours of television,  and the producer editor working with the social department AI platform didn't have to watch the shows right now.

The AI watched it down for them. So that saved three hours’ worth of time, right? Who's going to be more productive? Which producer is going to wind up being more productive at the end of the day? And so, yeah, you're right. It is. It is. We are at a moment where I don't think AI is going to replace filmmakers, but should AI Be a tool by which filmmakers make better or more art?

Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's, it's up to the artist. What brush are you going to use today?  Yeah. So yeah, there are many platforms. I use Opus Clips and I; I clip my podcasts and, and other videos and it's like. It is freaking amazing. I mean, and you know, I go, I was a pioneer in vertical video and it's like, and it's just at this point, it's like, yeah, it's so automated and so cool.

And so easy. Just removed all the barriers of because I knew how hard that work was, right? Because I used to do it by hand. And it's like, and now it just does it. And it's like, that means I can just yeah. Put the stuff out there now, we need to caution ourselves with how much we put out there because you know, we're flooding these channels with overload that we maybe aren't necessarily curating and reviewing as much as we should.

So, I'm certainly cognizant of that more. So now kind of got over the love of it. Right. And that was like, okay, now. You know, I have multiple channels, so let's like start programming the channels with different content. So, they're different experiences. And speaking of channels, you have a new podcast, which I watched you and Marion.

How's that going?  It's going pretty well. Thank you. Yeah, we're I, I resisted starting a podcast for quite some time. For, for a couple of different reasons. The first is I didn't want it to be just duplicative of what I write. Secondarily, you know, I didn't want to just be another voice into the void you know, out there pontificating my own ideas you know, single guy into a mic.

And so, I just, I just was on a hunt for a format that was differentiated, but also a point of view that felt new and fresh. And I was talking to Marianne at MIPCOM and, I thought, both sides of the Atlantic talking about the media universe from those individual points of view.

You know, her very particular angle on, on the industry, married or actually kind of intersecting because we don't always agree. Mm-hmm. With mine. I just felt fresh. It felt different. You know, honestly, having a female perspective, you know, counterbalance, you know, my own all that just felt like something new to me and something exciting for me to do. 

And it was a collaboration, not a solo practice. Like, so this was all kind of new to me. And it's been just totally enjoyable. I mean, we just, it's funny. We get together to do the podcast once a week. And, you know, by the, by the time the hour passes, we were like, oh, that's it. You know, so we're, we're having a really good time doing it.

I think we're also, you know, at least based on the feedback so far, adding value. We, we feel, people feel like you know, even people who follow us. Both individually or either one of us individually feel like they're getting something different when they listen to the podcast, a new perspective, because it's a conversation from two different points of view.

And, you know, we have had we just recorded our 2nd guest you know, and we're going to do guests here and there, but primarily we want, you know, we want to provide a conversation between 2 voices that you trust. About topics that you care about in a pursuit of making yourself smarter on those topics on a weekly basis.

And I feel like, you know, without seeming self-congratulatory or hoping to not sound self-congratulatory. I think we're meeting that moment.  Yeah, I know. I've watched them and you have a great chemistry. And obviously the knowledge base is there to pull from. So, I think it's fascinating. Yeah, it's you know, at the end of the day, I think the chemistry actually makes.

The podcast work. Yes. Yeah. No, you're both so super smart. It's like, okay, that's great. But what are you talking about? And how do you talk about it? How do you, how is it engaging? Right? And that comes from, you know, your personalities and this, this duo dynamic, right? Yeah, and I, you know, I have found, I've been teaching for 20 years now, and you know, I also give these presentations all over the world, like you talked about, and I have found that, you know, education is more effective when it's entertaining. 

When it's a conversation. Right. And, and, and I think people like sleep on that, you know, like, Oh, I'll read this text, or I'll watch this how to video. And I think the ones that work better, the, the things we remember most are the times that were both informed and entertained simultaneously. Yeah. A good friend of mine Kent Reese calls it edutainment.

And you know, I think that's, that's a really interesting, you know, take and that's, I think what we're trying to do.  Yeah. You know, but I also really appreciate the fact that I mean, I listened to your speech streaming media, and it was encouraged that people actually still do read. And that reading as a form of social media is as a form of engagement is still there.

It's still ranking and you're a prolific writer. I write a weekly blog, but you know, I, you know, that was encouraging and, and it helps me because, you know, you wonder, is anybody reading this stuff, you know, and ironically, they do because I get Calls from people and it's like people, yeah, no, I read your thing.

It's like, oh, you did. It's like, okay, well, someone's reading it. Thank God. You know, impressions and reading are a little different, but that's what I really like about this moment in time. You know, As disappointed as I can be about the mainstream media and journalism in particular at this moment in time, and there are exceptions, obviously the Atlantic, I think, continues to do really amazing work and other outlets like that.

You know, the rise of the creator writers. Sub stack beehive, these other creator platforms, you know, medium, I think was, was fine for its day, but I think it's really been surpassed you know, by those two platforms and some others just as a useful tool. But, you know, I think it, it's never been a better moment you know, like a Ben Smith and, and the anchlor and. 

You know, a couple of these other outlets, you know, the rise of independent media to me in, in text you know, I don't think there's been a better moment to read like you want to, you want to read something about any topic you want. On the face of the earth. Yeah, there's a newsletter for it. I guarantee you. 

And so go find it. And it's a well-researched, well written newsletter from a singular point of view you know, that you can either pay for. Sometimes you can get for free. So, I do think the rise of the independent news outlet or the independent, you know, writer is, I just, I'm very encouraged by that.

Yeah. I mean, it's yeah.  Hard to watch the news these days but I find comfort in writers like Steve Schmidt and Heather Cox Richardson. It's like, I think just between those two newsletters and now the contrarian, it's like, you know what? That's all I need to know today. That's all I need to read and let the visuals in my mind go, but I just don't need to be bombarded with the visuals that I think that's why, you know, we're in the situation we're in is that the sensationalization and the use of video pictures and all that help make this guy so popular.

And it's like, yeah, cut that out and just try to read the news. Yeah, there's no, there's no, it's not an accident that a game show host is now, you know, the leader of the free world, so to speak, what what's left of freedom anyway. And you know, this is, you know, it's, it's everything we always were worried about.

But you know, when you look through history,  those who know how to manipulate popular media best, Wind up abusing its worst and that's, you know, you can go back to Hitler and  but forward now to, to our current well, you know, like the Gutenberg Bible and the Gutenberg press, because all of a sudden it was democratizing information to the masses and wasn't necessarily just the Bible being printed.

Right? Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, and, and, you know, so I guess if I have hope and there are many days I don’t, but on the days that I do, it's that there is so much independent thought circulating out there. That reaches so many people that I do feel that there's an opportunity for the counter insurgency to take hold.

I, I do think it, it, it, it will mean today's modern politicians who mean well, the Pritzkers the AOCs.  The whole goals on certain days you know, to embrace those arenas. And I don't know that they really know how, I mean, AOC is obviously terrific at social media, but does she know how to take social media and turn it into an actual movement that has yet to be proven out?

And yeah, I mean, AOC, AOC does a good job, but you know, the, I think the embrace of podcasts. Embrace of YouTube. You've written a lot about this and kind of alternative media away from mainstream media, which is really having some issues. They're, they're going through some things, right? That I, I think we're in this big transformation. 

Which is an opportunity for the, the rising of new voices. And certainly, I, hell, I really do. I really, I believe in that. I, I think that's what's going to happen. But it, you know, it's also right wing and, and left-wing voices, right? Yeah. But it's, it's funny how, you know, the media's going through some things, but it, it's almost entirely self-inflicted.

you know, the commercial is, it first came the, the capital. You know, the, the, the capitalist commercialization of mainstream media, you know, when I was growing up, when we were growing up, you know, the news division and the entertainment division, there was a hard wall, there was a thick red line between those two.

They didn't have to make a profit.  And now that's the only reason the news division exists. And you know, that's. That's that was the first step to where we were. And then, you know, then there's the, the, the eradication of the fair fairness doctrine in 1987, and then section 230 in, in, in in the nineties, and then the lack of regulation around social media, like.

These things were all part of the same conversation. And so, when mainstream, you know, when CBS complains that they're being attacked by the current administration, it's like, dude, what did you think was going to happen when you started down? You knew he was a snake when you let him in and, you know, and it, and it started long before Trump came to power.

So, you know, you're part of the problem.  Yeah. Yeah. And here we are as individuals trying to manage every day and trying to progress either with our businesses and, and, and live in a, maybe a tech bubble. I'm not sure there's multiple bubbles. Some are boosting at the moment, but You know, it's they're challenging times.

I appreciate your voice in all the craziness huge, huge fan. And you know, I, I think the disruption not only happening in mainstream media, but also streaming media and broadcast television, it’s like, yeah, none of that destruction.  A. I. It's like, what? It's like, no, it's like bad management. Yeah.

Well, you know, I think Amazon and Netflix are going to win the streaming wars because they built the infrastructure, you know, and these streamers like, you know, HBO Max and those people thought that they could compete from a technology level with technology companies globally, that was a fool's errand.

It was. And what's fascinating is.  You know, the, the traditional media players had an opportunity to embrace big tech differently as opposed to compete directly with them.  And there are 10 tons of forks in the road that I can, that I can point to. And, and by the way, Amazon, you know, on one hand, I think you're right there, they are coming for all the money.

But on the other hand, you know, if you look at the announcements they've made recently. You know, let's put James Bond aside for a second. You know, they basically said, Well, I don't think we're going to be making entertainment programming so much anymore. We're going to really focus on sports.

Sports. And we're going to focus on selling other people's channels. Those were the two announcements Jassy made. Yeah. And I think that means, like, they don't really, They haven't really proven to be that great at making entertainment. There, there are exceptions out there. There's the Jack Reacher’s and the, and the, and the, you know, the boys but like for the most part, they've overspent and underperformed.

And the viewership really does demonstrate that. You know, if you look at viewer per dollar spent on their content, it's kind of embarrassing how badly they And I think Jassy has done the math and is saying like, Hey, we're just going to be Comcast now. We're going to help people distribute. We'll do sport, but that's really just an advertising play.

The rest of it is going to be like, Hey, we'll sell HBO. We'll sell Disney plus we'll sell Apple TV. Plus, that's where those platforms should be. Is that a Netflix and prime? Yeah. I don't know why everybody felt like they needed to go direct to consumer. I think the whole, the whole rush to go direct to consumer and commercial free in 2019, just. 

Just like watching a friend run full speed into a brick wall over and over and over and I just, I, I, you know, it was like, whoa, what do you, how do you, why do you think this is a good idea? And now they're proving that it just wasn't a good idea.  Yeah, it's really, it's really sad because it's. Led to the death of some studios, the consolidation of studios, which means less movies.

Yeah, now you were television shows now. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a big pendulum swing. I, I do think we'll swing back at some point, but I also think, and this is something I try to encourage everybody who will listen you know, embrace the creator economy. That's where a lot of, you know, the shows, Portlandia, everything I've ever made from a producorial standpoint would probably not get Greenland today and, and some really important I would find a home on YouTube for sure.

Correct. And, and there are independent, independent methodologies to creating art that, you know, you look at the Mr. Beasts and every, you know, everybody uses him as an example, but you know, look at Trixie Mattel. Trixie Mattel is an industry unto themselves, and they make a lot of money-making content. On an ongoing basis.

Yeah. That is a soul practitioner, drag queen, who is an industry unto themselves using social media, but they also sell TV shows to mainstream platforms too. So. You know, we're, you know, frankly, God love them, the Kardashians, like they have an industry unto themselves for a good reason. Kylie Jenner is a billionaire for a reason.

It's not because she got a lot of money from, from E to make, you know, keeping up with the Kardashians. It's because she used the creator economy to create an industry around herself. By the way, Paris Hilton, same thing. So, it, it's a, it's a. There is a moment here for those artists who want to try to, you know, free themselves from the shackles of the Hollywood industrial complex, which is, you know, circling the drain for the most part, but you have to learn the new science. 

Yeah.  Yes. Reinvention reclassification reimagination of where it could all go. And, and really, it's creative people who should be leading that with the use of AI. So, we're getting close to the end of the show. Any last plugs you want to make for events or your podcasts or how?

When will this go live? Oh, next week. Okay. So, I'm at MIP London next week. I'm interviewing Pedro Pina from YouTube. I'm introducing interviewing Ross Appleton from 2B UK. I'm interviewing Justin Sampson CEO from Barb. So, stop by there if you're in London. But virtually. Same week, I'll be interviewing Catherine Sullivan from National Cinemedia.

I'll be interviewing Bruno Greiner from NPAW. I'll be interviewing Matt Hennick from Trade Desk, who's launching their new CTVOS all on Streaming Media Connect. Virtually, it's free. You can check it out. Just, you know, Google Streaming Media Connect, and my name and you'll find it. And then this summer I'll be having my own stage.

At stream TV in Denver.  Fantastic. Well, listen, thanks Evan for joining us and we definitely want to have you back on the show and thanks and thanks to all of you for tuning in and catch more of our realm IQ sessions on your favorite podcast platforms, please follow and smash that subscribe button.

That's important. You can also follow us on Tik TOK and LinkedIn and now blue sky. That's a real thing now. So, thanks again, Evan. Thanks so much. It was a great conversation and best of luck to you. Yeah, you are too. Thanks.