RealmIQ: SESSIONS with Kambria Dumesnil

FULL INTERVIEW: In this episode of "Realm IQ Sessions," host Curt Doty interviews Kambria Dumesnil, a learning and development AI fusionist. They discuss Kambria's background, current work with AI, and the challenges and opportunities in integrating AI into learning and development.

Topics Discussed:

1. Kambria's Background:
   • Kambria has a decade-long career in learning and development, focusing on knowledge management and e-learning development.
   • She transitioned to working with AI at the beginning of the year when ChatGPT became popular.
2. Current Work with AI:
   • Kambria's main focus is enhancing the learning experience through AI.
   • She works with organizations to implement AI in workflows and learning journeys to provide better support and engagement for learners.
3. Importance of Education and Upskilling:
   • Curt and Kambria emphasize the significance of re-education and upskilling in transforming learning experiences in the corporate world.
   • Kambria highlights the need for employees to have the necessary knowledge and performance support to excel in their roles.
4. AI's Role in Learning and Development:
   • AI can provide dynamic and interactive job aids, allowing employees to engage with and get context-specific support.
   • Kambria sees the potential of AI to create more authentic and effective training simulations.
5. Challenges for HR and Organizations:
   • Organizations face challenges in preparing employees for AI-related roles, including AI literacy and developing AI strategies.
   • Kambria points out the need for organizations to have clear policies on AI usage and training to ensure employees are prepared for AI integration.
6. AI Councils and Pilot Projects:
   • Kambria discusses the importance of having AI councils and pilot projects to test and demonstrate AI's effectiveness within organizations.
   • She suggests starting with small, manageable projects to showcase AI's potential and gain organizational buy-in.
7. Future Opportunities and Challenges:
   1. Kambria is optimistic about the future of AI in learning and development, believing it will empower individuals and organizations to tackle higher-level problems and innovate.

Quotes from the Speakers:

1. Kambria Dumesnil:
   1. "What I'm really interested in is how it can help our learners on the learning journey and give them better learning experiences."
   2. "We need to be a lot more proactive about how we're preparing employees and the change management aspect of it too, and helping them understand what their role might look like with AI."
2. Curt Doty:
   1. "The idea of rebuilding the organization as an AI operation is a central task and core to a reorganization and a reimagining of corporate structure."

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Transcript

 Hi, I'm Curt Doty with Realm IQ. This is our podcast Realm IQ Sessions, where we talk about everything AI with AI leaders from around the world.  Today's guest is Kambria Dumesnil.  I hope I said that right she's a learning and development AI fusionist, a fellow podcaster and much, much more. Welcome Kambria. 

Thank you. I'm excited to be here with you. Yeah. So tell us more about your background, how you got into AI,  what you're doing with it currently and let's get into it.  Sure, so my background really is in learning and development, mostly along the lines of knowledge management. I was a knowledge management administrator for many years and. 

Worked on documenting processes, getting that knowledge from subject matter experts and really sharing that throughout the organization to who needed to hear that information and get that and then e learning development. And I also work with different clients to planning learning curriculum. So I've been in learning and development probably.

Almost 10 years now. And I just started with AI at the beginning of this year. So right around the time chat GPT came out. And so it was really a learning experience for me and I've been. Experimenting, putting that to use, and working with different organizations and their teams. My main focus right now is on the learning experience, so we hear a lot about how it can help with workflows and generating content, but what I'm really interested in is how it can help our learners on the learning journey and give them better learning experiences. 

That's great. I, you know, I think re education, upskilling, helping people in the workplace, whether you're in an educational institution or at work in the corporate world, I think it's really important that we focus on education because I, I believe it's going to transform the learning experience as it should and challenge the status quo. 

On how we have traditionally learned. So  is your background in education  or is it more knowledge management, like you talked about?  Yeah, my background is really in workplace learning and development and making sure that employees have  first the knowledge that they need to be able to do the job. If they're just coming on board or if we have a process that's changing, getting them ready to do that, and then in the realm of performance support and being able to get them that in the.

Flow of their work. So we can't remember everything that we're supposed to know on the job, and we shouldn't have to either. So that's where we have things like job aids that can come in. And what's really great about AI is it's no longer just going to be a static document that you're looking at. You can engage with it, ask questions, give it context, and it gives a lot more opportunity to get better responses and then use You can take that as a recommendation, apply your expertise to the situation, and then learn from that too, as you continue to evolve through the process. 

Yeah, so does this all fall under HR? For  some. I think every organization's a little bit different. Some do put it in the HR categories, other have learning and development separately. But HR is where we commonly see it with employee growth and development.  Yeah, so I, I would imagine  HR is in a crisis right now, as the threat of job  displacement is a real thing, and, or,  Who do they hire that might or might not have AI skills and how do those job descriptions change?

How does the onboarding process change? I'm sure onboarding is part of your realm in terms of education as well. People are trying to get educated about the company and policies and all that as a job aid. Where do you see the challenges for HR in this new world of Potentially millions of new jobs.  Yeah, I think the recruitment and hiring aspects a little beyond my realm of expertise, but we do have a lot of similar challenges with learning and development when it comes to preparing employees to use AI.

So if we have these new. Jobs that are going to be requiring AI skills. We really only have 2 options. Either you hire for that talent or you train your own talent. And I think what it looks like is going to be different for every organization, but you have to have some type of strategy. You know, what skills it is that your organization is going to need and then be able to identify the right tactics to get.

that talent that you're going to need. So a lot of times in organizations that can start with AI literacy, but you have to develop it beyond that. If you're going to need to have developer type positions and ones that are really into the technical side of AI.  So are you optimistic with all this change?

Because you're in the middle of it. You're in the helping people with that transition. What's  with your finger on the pulse? What is the mood? People that you're working with both higher up and and lower down as you interact and and connect all of them  Yeah, I think it's really a mix because there is so much uncertainty I think there's a lot of fear about what's going to happen to my job is It going to be automated or outsourced to AI  if it's not and it's just going to be augmented How is my role going to change and that's a lot Of unknown at this point.

I think even for learning and development, we don't necessarily know what skills we need to be giving our employees and helping them develop because right now the organization still need to define their AI strategy and figure out how it's going to be used in the workplace. So that's, I think, is where a lot of employees in the organizations are right now.

Just.  Not knowing, so that can create some barriers there. And then once you do know, figuring out  how you're going to prepare yourself for those roles and in learning and development, how we're going to get employees ready to be able to take on those new roles and different responsibilities that come with it.

I think AI  literacy is something that organizations are not doing a lot of right now. There's a little bit here or there. They might have. A workshop on using chat GPT, and that's really not enough. To go forward, I think I think we need to take be a lot more proactive about how we're preparing employees and the change management aspect of it to and helping them understand  what their role might look like with AI and why I think it's going to be important to getting buy into a lot of these processes.

Yeah, what you're talking about is AI operation, which organizations don't have, they're anecdotally dabbling, right? Like you said, a workshop here and there, and, and really the onus is on the employees to maybe educate themselves, right? Which.  Can be expensive for the employee, or if there's a stipend for education for employees to go take, you know, what could be an expensive workshop up to maybe 10, 000 to get a certificate or something from, from Oxford or whatever.

The the idea of rebuilding the organization as an AI operation is a central. I believe this meat  pontificating, but I think it's a central task and core to a reorganization and a reimagining of corporate structure, which is,  you know, you've seen the, you know, the PowerPoint hierarchy of who reports to, but an AI operation should be something that infiltrates.

Likely every aspect of the business. And so  what, what is that AI operation and how do they interact with various different departments? And to me, it's less of a,  a chief prompt engineer, which you've seen that as a job description, maybe a job. I don't know, but I, I don't think that's really the solution.

I think it's an AI operation, which can be many things because a human centered AI operations should be focused on. The ethics, liabilities, the legal aspects of integrating this technology into the workplace, how to protect the company's IP, cybersecurity, all those things that people aren't thinking about,  certainly in generative AI, where it's like, hey, cool, I'm, I'm making images, you know, or I'm writing articles, I'm helping, you know, my work is being supported with these tools, but there's a larger concern And should be a concerted effort around  reimagining the organization.

So you, as a question to you, as an advocate, cause I feel you're an advocate with an AI advocate within your organization, which I think every organization needs.  How  are you, I mean, you're, you're working within your own program and you know, what you're responsible for and integrating AI, but you as an advocate, are you able to  expand your influence and reach into other departments with the use of AI and using what you're currently doing as a role model for success? 

Yeah. So I think before I answer that, it might be helpful to clarify a bit. So my role in my. Main job. I work with labor and industries and I'm a management analyst. So I don't get into AI as much as I do outside of work. So outside of work, I have the AI innovation lounge, and I do a lot of learning and development work with different organizations where they usually have.

a situation where either they want to help train their employees on getting AI literate or finding different use cases. Sometimes I'll help walk them through finding those use cases in learning and development. So within that role, I don't have a lot of reach to other programs in different areas to be that advocate, but I do think we need.

Some type of role for that in organizations for us in learning and development. It's not necessarily our place to take on that role, but I think we do need to be a part of the broader conversation. And what I've seen different organizations do, some are having a work group that they put together or a different thought group.

And the problem with those is they can take a lot of time. You could spend six months just getting one up and running. And by that point, you're falling even farther behind. So I think. Having a smaller group, at least that takes immediate action and at the very minimum, getting some type of policy in place for your organization.

So employees know, am I allowed to use these tools? Because a lot of employees, they haven't heard one way or another. If It's even allowed. So if you're going to guess, I guess you could ask for permission later and just do it. I don't know, but that's not necessarily what we want. Yeah. I put the entire business plan for next year into chat GPT.

Is that all right?  It's like, what  are our Q4 earnings? I've wanted to do a table for me. Is that all right to put in there? Yeah, you bring up a good point. And what you're talking about is a formation of quote unquote AI councils, right? Which might not be effective, but I, I, I think that the most important thing to do is as an advocate within your organization is to create a pilot project, something that you're doing already.

Okay, that may have 10 steps to it, whatever it could be marketing, it could be social, it could be a learning program, it could be content creation, whatever it is, and, and document those 10 steps, if it is that, and, and, and, and pick three steps. That you feel could be enhanced or be able to utilize these AI tools within that 10 step process and then put a pilot project through that process and, and then present those learnings, present those efficiencies, good and bad, whatever.

But, you know. Start with a pilot project. I call it play with purpose.  You know, it's one thing to just play, but you need to have a specific outcome  and, and, and the goals that get you to that outcome, figure out how to use AI in that process, and then you will have an AI outcome, which will be a case study, you know, not just, hey, let's have the AI council meeting this week.

What are we going to talk about? Well, those councils can talk a lot about  everything that's going on because it's just like, you know, drinking from a fire hose in terms of news and new platforms and, and all that. But to really affect change within the organization, you need to have a project. You need to find a purpose to use AI and be able to demonstrate it. 

As a thought leader within your organization or other organizations  on how it works, you know, and and  mystify  the all the misnomers that are happening, you know, I'm going to get replaced by robots like, no, you're not. It's software. Okay. So  the Internet came software came word processing came, you know, there used to be secretarial pools and, you know, now everyone can type and pretty soon.

It's just all going to be voice activated. So you don't need to learn how to type. So these are common things that happen with technology.  And what are your thoughts about that whole process of, you know, playing with purpose and, you know, finding a pilot project, is that something that you've been able to implement or teach organizations that you talk to? 

Yeah. And I think. What you laid out is a really good way. I think for us, just as individuals in our organization to really be able to stand out as leaders in the AI space. So if your organization, maybe they have a policy saying you can use AI, but nothing's really been done to. Teach employees or do anything with it.

It's still kind of in progress. This is really your opportunity for you or your team. If you're leading a team to be able to take that on. And like you said, lay out those steps, find where AI is going to be most effective to try it out, even if it's just. Starting with something as simple as CHAT GPT to help you with parts of those processes, and then you can document that you set measurements so that you can show what the results are going to be.

And I love that you mentioned to use it as a case study, because I think being able to bring these forward as examples of how it's already making improvements in an organization or things that your group's doing, that's going to help get buy in, I think, at different levels of the organization to see that.

Okay, maybe this isn't just an abstract thing that we might want to do someday. This can have meaningful improvements for us. And I think we have a lot of opportunity in the states just because there's not a lot of individuals that are working in AI yet or putting forward these type of projects to really stand out and help prepare yourself for what your role might be in the organization in the future. 

Yeah, I, I believe there's a lot of people using it and they're not talking about it because of the apprehension of should they be using it within the organization, but  I, I believe  there's a lot of people using it, but the hurdle is, is the fear and the adoption of corporate America to embrace it and understand the risks.

And create policies, but  I think taking these pilot projects that are safe, right? What's a safe project that isn't going to,  we don't have to put in,  you know, proper names. We don't have to put in proper brand names, but if there's a way to genericize some of the input so that the output. Is, you know, is not informing an LLM about company secrets, you know, it's kind of generic, but then the person, a human centered AI architect of this, this plan and this interaction goes through it and then, you know, drops in the words that are actually relevant to, to the business.

But, but essentially, you know, chat GPT, for example, you know, basically wrote and organized this whole prompt and made it into something that is then presentable after it's been edited by a human being,  uh, because you still need those human beings to check and double check and again, synthesize what they're getting from these LLMs in terms of  data, checking it and make sure it's correct, and then synthesize that into a company.

document, proposal, report, whatever, however, whatever that entity is. Let me ask you about your podcast, because I know you have many sessions on there, some great subjects.  How is that going and, and how are you using that platform as a, as a podcaster to evangelize?  Yeah. So I started the podcast this August, so it's still pretty new.

We just had our 17th episode this week. And so up until maybe six months before that, I never actually listened to podcasts. I just, I don't know. I prefer videos. I prefer reading things. And then when AI hit, podcasts really became my source for learning and being able to hear from others what they were doing with it and different things.

So that's where I got into that space of being able to. I wanted to share some of the things that I was learning, some of the things that I've come across talking through some of the different research that's out there, particularly for learning and development, just because there's not a whole lot of information for our field specifically.

There's great studies that are out there, but I wanted to be able to show how we could apply it to our work. So that's how that got started. It's really been a learning experience for me too, because there's a lot of opportunities to use AI in my own processes, creating the podcast. So I'm not having it write a script for me, but we can brainstorm.

I can give it a research  paper that I've read, or it's an article I came across that I thought was kind of interesting and then synthesize from different sources. And instead of spending maybe 10 hours a week to create one episode, I can spend an hour. Maybe hour and a half doing the research with Chad GPT on it.

Think through my thoughts of how I want to get across and then just record it. I use the AI tools to give me said titles for what I'm saying. And I of course go in and fix it because it's not always right. My name's always spelled with a C when it's supposed to be a K or we have Chad GPT. So that's definitely where we have that human there being able to validate it.

But I think Chad GPT and AI in general, it's really. Lowering the entry barrier for a lot of these different opportunities out there and individuals like me can now have the time to go out and make podcasts or create my social media posts for LinkedIn that I do a lot. And I just wouldn't have the time to do probably one third of what I do now if I didn't have AI as a tool to help me.

Yeah. Well, speaking of tools, what are, what are your, some, some of your favorite tools that because everyone's multi mode, there isn't any one tool that does everything someday there might be, but what are your favorite tools?  Yeah. For me, it 90 percent is chat GPT with the plus version. So  having GPT for it. 

Stop by mid journey subscription because there's now Dolly in there. And that gives me what I need. I don't work a lot with  super detailed images or frequently enough where I need to have that second tool. And so I think as AI gets more popular too, that's what we'll see is a lot of our costs for having these tools are going to come down because.

They're going to be more readily available in tools we already use, like for me, it was chat GPT or Microsoft integrating things, different things like that, other than chat GPT. I really like  the learning and development having simulations. So the tool I've used before is in world AI, which it's a gaming platform.

But you can use it, they use it for NPCs and non playable characters, but we can use it for in learning and development to create a character that's going to be role playing with the user to practice a conversation. And it can be really authentic to the context because you build that into the persona and you tell it that it's playing this particular person, you can set a resistance.

To change if they're high resistance, low resistance, you can say how surprised they're going to be all these different factors and it just really helps prepare individuals for a ton of different situations because it's not just one you're going to make, you can create six different personas, and they're going to have six different opportunities to practice having conversations and really get a feel for what it's like in the real world and the different dynamics that you might encounter with that.

Yeah. Are you doing sexual harassment training or is that not in your wheelhouse?  No, I've done stuff like that before with the regulatory compliance type training, probably two to three years ago, that would have been. The most popular, because that's what organizations usually need. And it's not, how do we fix this problem?

It's not what we hear a lot. Unfortunately, it's, I needed a two hour training on this. So I'm going to hire you to create it. And it's really unfortunate,  they're not eliminating it. They're covering their ass, so to speak  with the program development.  Yeah, yeah, I remember I remember taking those when I was in the corporate world It's it's a necessary thing, but I still believe it's still an abuse out there Unfortunately, and so what are some other challenges or opportunities that you see in the future that you're excited about? 

Because this changes every week  Right. It's hard to keep up certainly if you're trying to Be an AI expert. It's like, okay, yeah, well, 500 platforms a week are releasing. How can, how can you test all of them? Should you be testing all of them? Will, will that rate decrease as big tech is now integrating it into their, their normal subscriptions like Microsoft? 

What are you hopeful for?  Yeah, I like seeing new tools come out because I think they're really creative. And then, unfortunately, a lot of them do get adopted into like, now we have all the GPT, so a lot of the wrapper tools are going away, but they were helpful for the time being. So I think we're going to see things maybe in two different areas.

One is at that enterprise level, having tools through either that's Microsoft or maybe chat GPT enterprise, but also at the individual. And team level, there might be one off tools that you find out there that are really well suited for your use case. And I think. Having not just the literacy of understanding how to use AI, but actual fluency and understanding how different types of tools work, what their purposes are, knowing how to find their limitations and adapt those to your workflow.

So almost like an individualized. AI ops is how I look at it. You're AI ops for your own workflow and for your team. And that's really what I think of what I think of being an AI fusionist is being able to fuse it in that way. And that's what I'm really excited about for us in learning and development.

I think our role will need to evolve because these type of tools are going to give. Different individuals access in our organization to create their own learning materials and share their knowledge and expertise. And I think knowledge sharing is going to be a lot more powerful in organizations when we have access to AI that not only helps them create it, but can help organize the content and help individuals find what it is they're looking for, connect them to different individuals and.

As a profession and learning and development, we'll really need to think about what our true role is going to be moving forward. It might not be  learning content creation. 90 percent of the time. We might be able to focus more on high risk, high needs cases like. Maybe that sexual harassment training, it does need to be escalated.

And we really need to think about what type of curriculum is going to help give employees the knowledge and skills that they need to be able to deal with that. And how can we use AI in that and then build training programs and learning strategies that are a lot more meaningful.  Yeah, so that's very important.

I, I think, what do we do with all our spare time that we're gonna get from you know, working less and working harder and more efficiently? I mean, you're, you, you have your normal job and then you're doing this consulting and you're broadcasting, broadcasting on top of everything you're doing. So you're likely not working 3.

5 days a week, like Jamie Dimon says we're headed towards. But. But this notion of people getting out of the drudgery of menial tasks, right, and being able to tackle higher level problems and problem solvings and bigger thinking,  I'm hopeful that we can solve these bigger problems because there's going to be a portion of everyone's brain or a brain trust that will evolve. 

Be able to elevate themselves to tackle these problems with a fresh eye, new thinking and time, time allocation, whereas I never had the time to like do that. I said, well, I have the time. So what problems, what big problems are you going to solve? I'm also hopeful that really the next generation and even the alphas are going to be the generation that.

Solves major problems without ever having to go to college because they're going to be empowered through all these tools and think differently and be able to innovate and and challenge the norm and come up with solutions that can help help us older people. I can't speak for you for you. You're a young person.

I'm an older. I'm a baby boomer. So, you know  Our generation fucked everything up, so I'm, I'm hopeful that the next few generations are going to help, you know, figure out our  solutions, which we need them sooner than later.  So I've really enjoyed talking with you today. Is there anything that you want to plug?

I want to make sure people know how to find and contact you and, and you know, you can promote your services and please plug away.  Yeah, I think just the one thing I'll share is the AI Innovation Lounge website. So that's AI innovation lounge. com. And that's really where I have the prompt library, the different research studies that I've come across that I find most meaningful.

And then a link to the podcast is on there too. So that's really the central hub for everything AI and learning and development that I put out and come across. And I think it could be a really good. resource for you too, if that's what you're looking for. I'm always looking for resources. So thank you. So thanks Cambria.

And thanks for tuning in all you listeners and watchers and catch more of our realm IQ sessions on your favorite podcast platforms like Spotify, Apple podcasts, Amazon music. I heart podcast, Google podcasts and YouTube, and please follow and subscribe. Thanks again, Cambria, and love to have you back as things change and this fast moving world of AI.

And thank you so much for joining today.  Thank you.  Thanks, everyone. You can now catch Realm IQ session on your favorite podcast channels, including Spotify, YouTube, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Apple Podcasts, and iHeart Podcast, or listen to the full sessions at CurtDody. co forward slash Realm IQ.  If your company is interested in reaching an audience of AI professionals and decision makers to promote your event or product.

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